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Whispers. Deep analysis, metagame, suggestions


#61

Ok but in all seriousness. Evils only seeing one person’s whisper is far more productive at curbing WKM than global spy is while changing Noble’s Spy just makes it worse


#62

Why? Noble is already way too confirmable(this wouldn’t be as much of an issue if his day abilities didn’t instantly confirm him. All abilities of a class shouldn’t be confirmable). I thought we wanted less confirmable classes?


#63

This isn’t about confirmability. This is about whisper meta


#64

Alright, but why do you still believe that noble should keep global spy? Converted unseen should be stronger(or at least different, not weaker) than their BD counterparts. And even though this isn’t about confirmability, the global spy still makes it worse.


#65

I guess I’m out this thread since I’m the only one who likes whisper King meta

Just wanted to say one last time that I absolutely despite global spy


#66

The targeted spy is more useful for scum (who need constant watch on key targets) while global spy is more useful for BD (who need a few key whispers from unknown senders).

In other words the fact that the ability is on scum means that it being global rather than targeted actually makes it worse. Less so on Apostle because of how cultists work.


#67

But…that would nerf the evils :frowning:


#68

It’s trading power for sustainability.


#69

But power is nice


#70

But less power is better


#71

For BD?


#72

Yes. This would both reduce the whisper META, and give MM another function other than converting (or failing converts in my case). It would also indirectly nerf Maid Spy, while giving the MM a solid claim other than princess (or something like phys/sheriff).


#73

Actually town of salem’s revealed mayor meta was the standard… from what I remember in history with town of salem.

Revealed mayor meta was the standard… to the extent that it was virtually unheard of for the mayor (if it exists) not to reveal day 2 and collect all logs immediately. When a mayor revealed it would automatically become the jailors job to babysit the mayor for the rest of the game. (the mayor collecting claims was so highly valued that it was worth turning the jailor into a babysitter.

They “resolved” that by making mayor unwhisperable after he revealed. Which then lead to “VFR”, IE instead of a mayor being involved, instead town forced everyone to claim and post their logs every day back to back, executing refusers etc…

That was then lessened by limiting trials per day (to I think 3).

and last I heard the meta’s switched to jailor outing himself day 1 protectives covering him… and their attempted solution is making one of the NKs attack effectively unpreventable.

So yeah IMO saying “town of salem” doesn’t have this meta… is about as dead wrong as you can get. if it was “rare” you are probably thinking of either in their non competetive modes, or in the week long gaps between when they impliment a new “solution”, and everyone forming a new mass claim meta to replace it.


#74

But we don’t want evils to get all the information. Making it 1 target gives them more chances to get information than making it global, actually. How? With 1 target people will feel safer and continue the meta, if MM gets lucky he can get a Noble or a Prince sharing information. If it is global people won’t be so reliable on claiming via whispers, making it so is not a info gathering tool but a disruptive one; prevents BD from using KWM. I said that right below the ability why that works, I am not willing to make MM abuse the whisper meta, but making it so he shuts it down.

I disagree. BD is the one who needs to be careful at their night choices to both confirm themselves and find who is evil, Global Spy most powerful impact is not even what it shows to Noble at day, but what it gives no chance to appear. You got it? Let me explain better: Spy can see all whispers. Sure. Why is it strong? Because it reads all the whispers posted in the day? No, because its very existence prevents a lot of potential strategic talking and gameplay, because people know they can be read by the Noble. It has impact even if there is no Noble in the game, cause evils don’t know that. It is limiting.


#75

Why would you do WKM if you know the king AND ONLY THE KING is being spied on by scum? Like I said the whole point is to discourage one spacific type of whisper usage (having one player get all the claims and solve everything). Thus we need Noble to be at his best when that isn’t happening and Aristocrat (or MM if we go that route) to be at his best when that IS happening.

Since global spy doesn’t care how many people are being whispered to it means that it can be at it’s best when everyone is whispering different people. This is because it can have the advantages of having a Nexus (Getting a ton of claims) without the downsides (being a big target).

However single target spy works best when there IS a Nexus to maximize information gained per day. And unlike with Noble where knowing what the Nexus knows is redundant (the Nexus is already doing that job himself) scum actually need that information to foil the system.

Remember. There is no difference from a single target spy intersepting a whisper and a global spy intersepting a whisper. Either way someone else knows something you probably didn’t intend them to know. So a targeted spy on King should discourage WKM just as much as a Global spy on everyone. The difference is that Targeted Spy can always be watching while the Global spy needs to be limited for balence reasons.


#76

TLDR: Noble seeing everyone encourages whispering to everyone. Aristocrat seeing one person discourages whispering to one person


#77

IMO if we want to use MM or similar to prevent a master compiler of claims, it should probably be a day ability. That would protect from say moving target nexus possibilities. IE noble, mystic, prince’s taking the job as well, as the MM can react instantly when he hears the words “whisper claims to me” etc…


#78

Agreed


#79

Indeed, but this does not prevent any kind of “Whisper to me” showing up. Dunno if you are talking about MM’s whisper ability or Aristo but if this is MM, I like that idea as the main objective here is to keep people whispering without making it a “claim to me” meta. MM being able to see King’s whispers work just fine. If this is Aristo, tho, I disagree.

But Noble’s Spy being global would discourage any other use of whisper that is not by BD. Just like it already does. We can go forward discouraging the KWM without discouraging whispers by itself. As my MM suggestion would be 1 use ability and only to Unseen be able to know, it was not that hard hitting, only to NK.

It is, but it is also being too effective and, again, having so much effect that even in a game with no Nobles it is there acting passively; no one whispers cause they know there may be a Noble.

Well, the suggestion is already a Day Ability, but I get what you meant. It would also work without a problem, being honest, but this can also take the patch we’re trying to avoid; discouraging using whispers at all.


#80

what I’m meaning is a single target day ability works well against “ok everyone claim to me”. but works terribly against

(hidden prince) /w knight “protect me”
(MM) You have decided to eves drop on hidden prince
(knight to prince) “OK you got it”.

MM gets away with the information that some guy said ok to something some other guy got… about equally useful to just noting the “x is whispering y”.