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Whispers. Deep analysis, metagame, suggestions


#21

Yo, but any kind of balance asks for the same effort.

I said right after the part you quoted; same reasons starting Neutral King is not a thing anymore. King won’t legitimately have a reason to help BD, he can side with whatever he wants in order to survive/accomplish his goal. This gives no reason to either BD and evils keep King alive. They need the chance of him being at their side, that’s why King’s alignment is also hidden. That’s is exactly the reason people hate Neuts that much; sometimes the winner is decided on someone whose objectives divert from both evils and BD and has it’s own judgement of who deserves their vote.


#22

I’m not suggesting to bring back old Neutral King.

I was talking about situation when he can’t just swing his vote on any favour for his selfish reasons.
Let me give you an example:
Goal #1:

Make sure at least one Royalty will survive until the end of the game.

This would be a typical BD-Sided King who would usually need to cooperate with BD considering there is a possibility they won’t be converted.
Goal #2:

Defeat anyone who would try to take your throne. (Kill Prince/Neutral Killer/Leader Of Evil Faction.

This is a true neutral who,isn’t nessesary a threat for BD especially if Prince will die early. Depends on who is alive in that direction their votes would point on completely different people.
As I said it’s one of the options. At least it isn’t making a class that only reason is to counter “Meta”.

Jokes on you, Neutral is the best faction! :rage:


#23

Hey, the guy named Reaper agrees! :stuck_out_tongue:

I got your idea, also did not say it was Neutral King, just that it usually would work like one. I like the first goal, not much the second one. It is an interesting idea, honestly.


#24

Okay I agree that letting only evils read all whispers would counter King whisper meta. I guess I contradicted myself a bit. I actually like the King whisper meta though. It’s the Prince whisper meta that I think is problematic, because Prince is confirmed good.

If you can engage the players to use something to help and simultaneously hurt them, depending on their skill, why not?

Current spy abilities as well as the ones proposed in this thread all punish the Neutral Killer from attempting to form alliances against Blue Dragon and the evil faction.

The same applies to Royal Blood, which has a lot of potential but end up being a flat and uninteresting concept.

I agree.

Give it single target may also work, but I feel like it is too much of a hit in the class.

In my opinion, anything is preferable to keeping global spy. Let him throw 3 extra votes on trial instead of only 2. Force the person you force-voted to vote the same way as you do. Give him a “Gladiator” ability. I don’t know, we can some up with something.

You do or you don’t whisper? The punishment is entirely your fault. That’s how the game should be more like; giving you the room to do your evil plan, but punishing you for your own bad decisions. It requires skill from both the Noble and the guys whispering, then I think it’s fair.

There is no “you do or you don’t whisper” for NK with global spy existing. It’s only “you don’t whisper.” Because none of the classes with global spy are your allies, they are ALL your enemies. And it requires absolutely no skill at all from Noble or Aristocrat or Apostle.

Yes, I said that in the post. That’s probably the main reason why whisper meta is still a thing; devs want the King to command the court. However, we must seek other ways to accomplish this. KWM is not the right way for all the reasons mentioned in the thread.

To be honest I have seen reasons proposed in this thread for why global spy on Noble is bad. I have not seen any reasons for why King whisper meta is bad.


#25

I like the way that this is written, but the only problem with whispers is that people will (usually) only whisper the king and the prince. Prince is more of an issue since it’s a confirmed BD. Whispers don’t need to be completely discouraged. It’s fine that people whisper the king, the king is meant to be a leader(and should be powerful, but there should be more times of kings to prevent them from being as swingy) and would be boring otherwise. Players should just be encouraged to whisper other players, not only the king.

This would be too much. Mastermind is an almost guaranteed class. Plus it would power creep aristocrat.
The other 2 suggestions are fine. Also, here’s another solution:
Change noble’s maid spy back to single target with unlimited uses(evils can keep the global spy), but change it so it can target the king and remains on a target until you change targets. That should be enough to stop the whisper king meta.


#26

As I said, once starting King confirms himself as BD or any midgame King can also be 100% confirmed, people will claim to them and everything is back to the same as Prince Whisper Meta.

It is already this way, Neutral Killer just forms alliances with neutrals and even so it is almost impossible as Spy is a thing. This would not hit NKs at all, to be honest; I believe in the opposite, you have as many space to trick people via whispers as any other evil.

3 votes ability is way more stronger than even the current Spy, ESPECIALLY in mid to late game. No way.

But I am proposing global spy to be remodeled into an actual strategic ability. It is not global, it is targetable and has probably the same power Gossip do. Especially if MM gets access to whispers, cause it means less people are whispering. It won’t hurt NK any more than it is already, sincerely. NK isn’t hard because he can’t make strategies via whisper, he is hard because he mostly works alone with no info and suffers from the same all evils do; WKM.

Sorry, I hate to be the one who says this cause is almost a fallacy, but did you even read the entire thread? I said there clearly why King meta is bad. It is not interactive, neither fun, relies too much on a single person and will always benefit BD even if it is Evil King.


#27

It is in a completely different situation. They will mostly whisper Prince and King to claim. What I am proposing here is to transform this into the opposite; less “claim to me” and more of a strategical mechanic.

And I am not discouraging it! Just discouraging the whisper meta. The entire thread, really, is to encourage the use of whispers to something more than “claim to me, tell the truth”.

Exactly! But, again, not solely to claim.


#28

It’s very difficult for starting King to confirm himself as Good though. All I can think of is pardoning Prince on trial, guarding Prince from attack, or pardoning MM on trial after D3 and then this only works as confirmation if Prince is already dead. I don’t think these niche situations really factor into the topic.

I do think electing a confirmed Good King is somewhat swingy, but it is also somewhat uncommon to elect a confirmed Good King. It is perhaps too swingy because he has 3 nights of death immunity. My opinion of King is that he should not have any support abilities, and that starting King only should have survivability in the form of death immunity that gets consumed upon the first attack like Inquisitor.

I believe this is balanced because if King is acting so evil that BD doesn’t deem him worth protecting, the evil faction won’t deem him worth attacking. And if he acts like Good King, he will be protected by BD.

I thought you were proposing giving MM a 1-use global spy and letting Aristo and Apostle keep global spy? This discourages NK from whispering to neuts.

Eh you’re right. But I would like global spy removed at any cost.

You proposed to let Aristocrat keep the current global spy. This is overpowered and hurts NK too much. Your nerf to Noble spy still lets him see up to 4 people’s whispers, which is also overpowered and hurts the NK too much.

Yes, it makes the ability require slightly more skill and strategy. But it’s not a big enough change.

And giving Mastermind a single use global spy is an awkward counter to King whisper meta, in my opinion, which is not even a problem that needs countering since if people aren’t encouraged to whisper King, he cannot be a leader.

Okay, sorry I forgot you did explain why you thought it was bad.

But King whisper meta “always” benefits BD at the moment because of Noble’s global spy, not because of anything inherent to the King meta itself.

It relies on a single person because King is supposed to be a leader.

And apart from global spy, the main problem with KWM is not KWM itself but the fact that there aren’t enough classes in the game to avoid the triple claim problem, where evils are outed because they claimed a class of which there were already 2 real instances in the match.

I believe once new claimable classes are created, the global spy is completely annihilated, and King’s support and investigative abilities are replaced with social or voting ones, all the problems you attribute to KWM will disappear.


#29

But the mastermind suggestion would discourage whispering too much. A global spy shouldn’t exist on an almost guaranteed - class. I would be fine with a single target spy though. Maybe this instead: Reveal all previous whispers to and from your target. You will see all whispers too and from them for the rest of the day


#30

When I’m outted as Illusionist, I mental blur just to piss people off.


#31

I disagree. Usually an active King is enough to get BD’s trust, if they pardon a fool or exe an evil early it just helps them even more. A GK can easily confirm himself by the end of d3.

Yes and no. The situations are, indeed, pretty niche, but they are pretty clear as well. Especially with RB step after a conversion was exed. Prince could have jailed the RB, CW claimed CM, Pally claimed Smite and the list goes on.

Oh, true, indeed. Yes, I want Unseen to have a 1 use global spy to prevent the whisper meta without hurting the concept of whispers to everyone. It discourages NK in what? First three days? Not a big deal. NK won’t be at disadvantage with this, just not get advantage, these are two different things; NK will be pretty much at the same situation it is now.

It does not hurt NK, is just like I said above: it prevents them from getting some advantage. Which is ok, no class should be flexible enough to have advantage at everything. Noble will indeed be able to still read a lot of whispers, but you just gotta be careful. If you are whispering to much in d3, gotta expect to be spied d4; strategy from both parts. I honestly don’t dislike a single target spy that much, just think that will become too niche. With double target and still limited uses Noble has to manage his spies instead of yoloing them every night. Gossip will be a better option almost everytime, and a Gossip active means you can whisper freely for the day.

Thing is most part of BD agrees that this meta will help them; it is consistent. So they don’t care, they want to win. To counter the meta you don’t need people not doing the meta, you need to encourage them in not doing so. How to do that? Evils get access to whispers. The meta will be a problem as long as it does not give evils a fair chance to benefit from this.

Wrong. Even if it was targetable and Noble could only choose King, it would be a bad meta. Even if Noble could NOT target King’s whispers it would be a bad meta. The problem is to be too reliant on a single entity, giving away all the info of everyone and letting up to him what to do with this. Games are swingy, uninteresting and unfun once a single player massively commands the match’s flux. Not because they got luck with targets or because they had strategical thought; just because BD wants. It is basically the same as everyone throwing their logs at court everyday, but at least this way evils can play around legit logs to confirm themselves.

Yes, and the way it is now is not healthy to the game. Does not matter what King is supposed to be if this is bad. It does not justify.

And this is where I strongly agree. We need more classes, without a doubt. More BD, more evils and more neutrals. Once this is accomplished, games are gonna be greater. But, until there, we need to balance the game at how it is now, with these classes we have.


#32

Just for the first days. And, as I said, would encourage lies. BD needing to lie in order to be more effective, this is something that would be interesting :thinking:

It should not, but it is what the meta needs to stop or at least calm down.


#33

Even if Noble could NOT target King’s whispers it would be a bad meta. The problem is to be too reliant on a single entity, giving away all the info of everyone and letting up to him what to do with this. Games are swingy, uninteresting and unfun once a single player massively commands the match’s flux. Not because they got luck with targets or because they had strategical thought; just because BD wants. It is basically the same as everyone throwing their logs at court everyday, but at least this way evils can play around legit logs to confirm themselves.

Well here is where we disagree. Determining King’s faction based on how he handles all the information he’s given is what I consider a fun part of the game.

I don’t see how you can compare King whisper meta to everyone posting logs everyday, that’s pure chaos. People don’t even post logs everyday to the King. Maybe you meant to say posting claims everyday? That is also pretty chaotic, how can a mob analyze over 10 claims per day with some people changing their claim and others getting trollboxed, on top of investigative results and accusations?


#34

Again. Classes are not leaders. People are leaders. Throne of lies is at its best when multiple people are contesting the leadership role.


#35

Also. Noble should keep Global Spy while Aristocrat should lose it. Change my mind


#36

Not kidding btw


#37

That was just a purposely over-exaggerated example. A hyperbole. No need to discuss that.

Now, you may find it fun, but it’s not interactive and that is enough to most people dislike it. Nothing can makes everyone happy neither everyone sad, but I am pretty sure a big part of the playerbase dislike this “fun” part.


#38

As stated in the thread, BD has more to benefit with info than evils. This change you said would just make BD way more aggresive in comparison with evils regarding whispers. Absolutely no need for that.


#39

Exept that isn’t actually how that works. Our goal is to stop BD from using a whisper Nexus.

Evils being able to get whispers from a single target means that the only way to get all of the information is if all of it is going to one person. This is exactly what happens in WKM.

Thus whispering to anyone besides whoever everyone else is whispering to is a much better idea because that way there is no one target the Aristocrat could use to get everything.

However for the Noble this is irrelevant because he isn’t scum. Instead his job is to do the opposite and manage multiple groups whispering each other so he can coordinate using full information.

And thus we have a carrot and stick encouraging using anything besides WKM


#40

Uh.

Hey noble you used maid spy so what did I say to this person?

Also what did this person say to this other person?