The Priest [Blue Dragon Investigative]

The Priest [Blue Dragon Investigative]

Passives

Day Abilities

Suspicious Ritual - Your use of Religious Aura tonight cannot be tailored, you will appear framed tonight as well. (2 uses)

Night Abilities

Religious Aura - Determine if a player is not Blue Dragon, or is visited by a non-Blue Dragon player. (Inf Use)
Unorthodox Method - Check two players. If at least one of them is a Cultist, you attack both. (2 uses)

Notes

The Priest will only spawn in Cult games.
There will always be at least one Priest or Paladin in a Cult game.
The Priest and Paladin can coexist, but there can only be a maximum of 3 total. (There can’t be 3 Paladins and 1 Priest)

but why tho

I feel like being a Cult Leader means you really only have a few things to claim that aren’t really suspicious and are easy to fake. This doesn’t make any more Hardcounters to the Cult (as there can at most be only 3) so if you’re the 4th Hardcounter claim, you’ll most likely be killed.

If it’s drawing from the same set of the maximum as the paladin then that is irrelevant.

Fake claiming Priest resolves identically to fake claiming Paladin, so as a fake claim this class adds nothing.

And as an investigative it’s just the Paladin but way stronger for some reason, and also doesn’t really add anything interesting.

This has no reason to exist.

Neither does any class. Just make this game all vanilla roles and get to the point of what’s broken with this and how to fix it.

If you take it far enough you can conclude that nothing has any reason to exist and bla bla bla.

But no, the existing classes improve the games possibility space in some interesting way besides Chronomancer who really shouldn’t exist.

This however does not, since all of the individual pieces are already accounted for.

Direct attacks already exist on the Knight
Direct cult checks already exist on the Paladin
Making a target unconvertable exists both on Paladin and on CW, and with CW it’s an exclusive effect AND a day ability
Tailor bypass already exists via CW

This class also serves to make Cult games more differed than Unseen games.

Direct Unseen Checks exist on the sheriff. Just make sheriff able to spawn in both games and remove pally (tweaking sheriff a bit)

Can CW make anyone permanently immune? Does CW have to put more effort into thinking on whether or not someone might already be evil? Etc Etc.

But no class has a Tailor bypass with a Frame on themselves attached to it. And if your counter is “Well, they can be framed and Tailor bypassing” No class can do that on it’s own.

I’ve literally posted multiple suggestions to this effect. There isn’t a whole lot of reasons for why both Paladin and Sheriff need to have the same niche.

If it’s needed so some BD knows the scum faction at the start then it can just be a passive for the Sheriff/Paladin.

But it doesn’t. This doesn’t make Cult any more different than Paladin already does (which isn’t very much)

This class simply doesn’t improve the game. It’s just more classes for the sake of it.

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The fact that they are different has some balance implications. It means neutrals can’t fake “the right cop” right of the bat and the cops in question have some more credibility in the fact that they know which kind of game it is right away. I agree that this class is a bit minimally different from current Paladin, so would just serve to make it harder to understand for new players all the classes in the game.

Oof and then you post this.

Nice idea.

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So before you even look at the mechanics, saying how to change this into a good class, you instead dismiss it as Bad because these mechanics already exist.

Well then we might as well remove:

Chronomancer (Basically just Physician)
Paladin and the Cult (Basically just the Unseen and Sheriff)
Knight (CS is covered by Prince’s Execute, and Defend is basically just Execute + Heal)
Etc Etc.

Agree

Rework but basically

Has enough differences to justify it’s existance

Again sufficiently different.

Cult is just the overview of Unseen

Knight is just Prince + Phys.

Not really. The existence of only single kill capable class, the limited yet common nature of the converts and the promotion system means that the 2 factions play very differently.

If the Cult had unique converts for every class, promoted the same way and had the same fundamental Kill rhythm as the Unseen then I would say they were too similar even if the converts and abilities were slightly different. But that isn’t the case, so its it’s fine.

While Prince is certainly better than Knight, that doesn’t make them the same thing.

Same goes for Knight.

Chronomancer doesn’t add anything to the game because they both stop the same things. When asking what they are used to deal with they are interchangeable.

However there are plenty of things Knights block that Physicians do not. That is why we can say that Knight is better against Reaper than Physician is but Possessor is better against Knight while Sorc can deal with Knight but not as well as Possessor and is weak to Physician.

The simple fact that Knight blocks things that Physician doesn’t and Physician blocks things that Knight doesn’t already makes them very difficult. Combine that with the fact that Knights guard is a counter attack and is also unsustainable in that it eventually Kills him too and they are only similar in that they stop Kills, which makes them comparable but not interchangeable like chronomancer and phys are.

As for the Knight CS there are important differences there too. Specifically CS visits, doesn’t bypass anything, and isn’t known to exist beforehand.

From the PoV of balance none of that is particularly meaningful, since they are all negatives besides the unknown part which is sometimes good (the REAL upside to CS is being unlimited use but that property isn’t important here).

This means Unseen/Cult have a bigger reason to worry about attacks (and thus can get converts to block said attacks), and they can also attempt a Kill on neuts for creditably. Neither of which are the case with just the Prince.

Hunters kills are either telegraphed or are too situational, Prince Kills are also telegraphed and are unstoppable anyways (making it pointless to try and get converts to stop it) and neuts don’t usually go for Scum, even NK’s.

Maid and Sheriff are about as similar as classes can be without being too similar (discounting classes with different wincons like alch vs phys) since they both serve the same overall purpose but achieve those functions in different ways with differing counterplay and considerations at any given moment.

Now what about this class?

Do we need a direct Kill? We already have the Knight, so what does it being here add to the game?

Technically a permanent convert block doesn’t exist, but we tried it before and it didn’t go well. Especially against the cult due to the stalemate potential. And up to 3 of these? It’s at best a balance hazard.

The only thing interesting here at all is a self frame. But a single interesting thing doesn’t offset the cost of having an unnecessary class in the game.

Remember, the more classes there are the more complex the game is. Which means in order to justify the class it needs to add more depth than it does complexity. Having classes that are fundamentally interchangeable adds less depth than classes which are not, but they both add similar amounts of complexity. So again, why should this class be added into the game? How is this supposed to improve the game? What interactions are possible thanks to this class that weren’t before and how do those interactions make the game more interesting?

Also some people don’t even thing Cult is sufficiently different in-spite of all the differences I just listed, hence people like kape listing suggestions to differentiate them even further (a goal I fully support btw)

Sellsword is just Evil merc. Get rid of it.

Fool is just self targetting Scorned. Get rid of it.

Inquisitor is just a more specific scorned. Get rid of it.

Prince is just a glorified Butler with kill capacity. Get rid of it

Being evil is itself a redeeming quality. A difference in wincon usually has a far bigger effect than a difference in mechanics.

This is why Alchemist is valid as a neut but would be redundant as a BD.

Same deal here but get rid of it anyways.

Inquisitor and Scorned serve different functions. They are valid for pretty much the opposite reasons as Knight and Physician.

Knight and Phys are valid because their mechanical difference means completely different playstyles, counterplay ect inspite of having identical functions.

Inquisitor and Sccorned are (sort of) mechanically similar. However they serve different functions. Scorned works to make investigatives more suspicious and give good reason for early game false accusations. While Inquisitor is anti-massclaim.

Inquisitor can’t fulfill the Scorned’s function and the Scorned can’t fulfill the inquisitor’s function.

You can (and should) debate on how successful these classes are at fulfilling those functions, but an attempt was made.

Prince’s guaranteed status at the very least means that there will be a minimum of 1 blue dragon with occupation and kill abilities. And even if it didn’t Butler is justified for the same reason as Knight in this regard (the existence of a butler is something that can be played around and thus attempts will be made in doing so, while Prince does not bring up that dynamic)

Meanwhile Prince has his own dynamic with how the BD tries to keep him hidden from scum while scum are attempting to break through those defences to reach him at all costs.

The Prince is the entire reason why anti-protectives are so strong in the meta (ritualist, sage, enforcer ect).

And even then there are plenty of people who don’t think that this dynamic is sufficient justification for his existence and thus he should be reworked into a non-unique class with a more limited niche.

The problem with this class is that it resolves like a Paladin.

They have identical primary abilities (not even the chronomancer’s main ability is literally just a heal), and their secondary abilities other than False Membership serve the same functions as well (anti-conversion and killing cult)

The differences here are insufficient.

In order for a class to be justified it needs to either:

A - Solve a problem with the game (Scorned, Fool, Inquisitor)

or

B - Expand on an underutilized mechanic. The less utilized the better (CW, Maid, Cult, Hunter ect)

I don’t like Chronomancer because it is none of those. It resolves like a physician and we already have the Physician. Same goes for Paladin compared to Sheriff (or vice versa technically)

Paladin used to be more unique (but less balanced) at which time he was more justified, but at this point I do think a Paladin and Sheriff rework makes sense

Take this rework for example:

While I could go on all day about how this class rework would improve the game. The thing I want to point out is that is wouldn’t work very well as a standalone class rather than as a CW rework, simply because the existing CW already does the things this rework does.

The point of the rework is to make the CW more flexable and less complicated, but that doesn’t change that he is in fact still the CW

Ew no. Don’t remove my BD alchemist, chrono best class
For balance though it’s probably best if Chronomancer goes.

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