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Scorned and Fool Reworks


#21

What type of concept do you want me to change?


#22

In a lot of the cases it would actually hurt the unseen to be able to convert the fool/scorned, because they were already scum-sided neutrals to begin with and now unseen cannot convert anybody else until one of them dies. A lot of players also do not get that assassin+third convert are expendable.


#23

sigh I don’t like fool as a class, if it was like NE that occupied people that would be good


#24

Not really giving away decide fate is huge advantage and having a framer when no one expects it is huge

and again scorned being convertible is basically amazing esp if she was on the brink of death unable to help any evil

I don’t want it to get OP


#25

Hmm… I will try to think of an idea


#26

This is simply not true, the double-vote is more important on good king over decide fate. Decide fate is more useful for evil kings. If you convert a fool/scorned n1, you’ve accomplished nothing. Fool/Scorned would still try to hinder BD if they hadn’t been converted and now MM cannot convert anyone else until a different unseen dies. If he simply failed his conversion attempt, he could attempt again n2. There are situations where this rework would be beneficial to the unseen, but there are definitely also plenty of scenario’s where this sets them back.


#27

What if you really don’t want trickster/nemesis then out them as MM claim you are sheriff and get him killed and get yourself confirmed and then go on to convert anyone else since conversion trigger does not go down

of course you would have to ask for his permission

It is beneficial, like Vandalay said before fool might backfire in his plans and BD completely ignore him

But this is just annoying and unneeded, you could say all of the same for merc but he is convertible and no one has a problem with it


#28

Except claiming sheriff in the current meta where one guaranteed sheriff already spawns means you will be found out 50% of the time. MM is the most important member and that is ill-advised. The mercenary argument doesn’t go up, because he is BD-sided (you would know if he would be allied to an unseen and then it’d be even more stupid). It is smarter to poison and then convert his target, to get a Mercenary on your side regardless. The Sellsword is also way more powerful than the converts you have suggested.


#29

There can be 2 sheriffs, also a sheriff who hasn’t found anyone yet would be more sus than someone who found an unseen

Yes it does in fact how would you know he won’t sign up to an unseen member after his target dies? Also scorned can do just that, get 1 target lynched and then go with BD, converting a scorned is better than converting their target as their target would get targeted by the scorned

But he does have to try to confirm to it’s target that it’s still merc or else he dies, which the others don’t

Here are some of the disadvantages and advantages for the convertible classes

Trickster - Advantages

  1. Getting a Trickster up on stand and killed would be unbeneficial to good/neut king as they would lose an important power
  2. Even if Trickster gets killed somehow MM can just go convert another person without recharge time
  3. Having an occupy/redirection immune unseen that doesn’t show is big
  4. Trickster could act like a fool so everyone leaves him alone
  5. Even if Trickster gets killed somehow MM can just go convert another person without recharge time

Trickster - Disadvantages

  1. Loses Poor Fellow passive
  2. Doesn’t help that much get majority

Nemesis - Advantages

  1. There can be 2 immune unseen at night
  2. Nobody believes the defense “oh I was framed” which would be a great strength of the Nemesis as she would be able to watch as this happens
  3. Knows 2 BD
  4. Even if Nemesis gets killed somehow MM can just go convert another person without recharge time
  5. Having an occupy/redirection immune unseen that doesn’t show is big

Nemesis - disadvantages

  1. Loses perma immunity
  2. Doesn’t get 1 BD killed
  3. Doesn’t help gain majority

#30

There is a 50% risk of having 3 sheriff claims, right? You might have somewhat more credibility (this is still less if you bus the third convert, because bussing is a very known thing), but eventually they will execute every single sheriff claim. It won’t matter much if you are the third one. The thing is that limiting the claimspace of the MM is usually a really bad thing to do.

The Mercenary won’t sign up to an unseen member, because any sensible court forces them to contract 100% confirmed members like Prince or they will be executed.

I don’t even see why you try to make this comparison. The Mercenary assists their target, the Scorned actively goes after their targets. So obviously converting a Mercenary’s target is great for unseen and converting a Scorned’s target is not smart at all. The best strategy is to try and not kill/convert scorned’s targets and leave Scorned alone too, because they’ll just side with you trying to execute their targets and can possibly side with you later.

Except it is good if the Sellsword dies, because MM can convert again. You can also poison the merc target to stall out guards.

Trickster: Everyone can use the fool defense. This is not limited to Trickster. If you use TB to prove yourself it will just make it obvious you became a Trickster. It will just lead you to be prince/king executed if you make it too obvious. The recharge thing looks new and is definitely a step in the right direction.

Nemesis: Night immunity only means something against knights and possibly NK’s. It really is not that strong if you are on the evil side. Framing is also only greatly useful against sheriff’s and it will still be impossible to frame someone like Prince credibly. Knowing 2 BD’s is good information, however you have already converted one neutral to gain that information. There can only be a maximum of 3 more and a minimum of 1 more neutral to lose conversion on, so it is not that powerful. You didn’t add that recharging thing in either. How is it exactly revolutionary to be able to fool drunks/butlers a tad? It’s not like she retains the passive on turning into assassin.

Overall it is just bad to convert neutrals when it is your win condition to eliminate the enemy faction and not the neutrals. Add in the fact that all these neutrals aid your win condition, without having to be converted in the first place! To compensate for that they need to be be really powerful to pick up the slack for that difference like the Sellsword being the only convert that is able to kill. Nemesis should for instance be able to attack one of their original targets once in my opinion. I don’t have a great idea for the Trickster.


#31

True but you are likely the last one to be exe’d

I have seen many mercs signing up to an unseen member

I guess I got a bit carried xd

Converting a merc doesn’t trigger cool down time? Good to know thanks, that’s true

Yeah they can but Trickster will look like this to a princess sup/soc, which means princess will think that he is either fool/scorned, unseen convert, or very unlikely throwing bd.

That’s true, I added the recharge after Nuke told me too

Then you can act like a scorned and get 1 target exe’d and claim scorned, generally good kings don’t like to kill scorned’s cause they could side with them and evil king wouldn’t want to exe for this reason and you could be nemesis

Guess that’s true, but you can kill them with a double assassin ability knowing it would probably succeed since their BD

Oops forgot to add that, when I was adding Trickster’s one

I mean does a butler keep his passives when he turns into an assassin? I don’t think so

That’s true…

Not always I was evil king one time decided exe on his target and then he sided with prince…

I could add that but imo I think the only reason Sellsword is able to kill is because he has rebound


#32

the devs have made it clear

That you both must agree to bus
:slight_smile:


#33

I really despise bussing.

It’s not fun for the other person.


#34

What are you talking about?

I literally said that xd


#35

Talking about him


#36

okay


#37

We should have had old fool… Suprise Mojo and his Passive making the court suffer from hanging him aka 2 days without executions.


#38


closed #39