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Pretender Rework Version 2


#1
Why Pretender needs a rework
  • Pretender isn’t meant to be NB. I’ve seen people vote Pretenders who have open claimed Pretender. That shouldn’t happen. Pretender is meant to be more NC than NB and should have the same effect on elections that fool and scorned do on trials.

  • I have also seen players open claim Pretender to the king. That shouldn’t happen, and some kings have even kept Pretender claims alive.

  • Pretender’s day abilities are focused on eliminating/countering competition. I dislike the idea of hardcounters in general, and Pretender should have a better time in elections.

  • Pretender’s day abilities should be focused on manipulating elections. Part of the reasoning for the low win rate is because Pretender has nothing to prevent factions from voting their own rather than Pretenders.

  • Pretender can just be a better princess at times. This was the same issue that people had with the old alchemist.

Notes
  • I have based some of these ideas upon @Reaper’s thread, so credit for some of them goes to him.

  • Fool’s hide should be changed to this version

Pretender

Passive 1: Outcast - Immune to death at night once. The king (and their faction, if any) may not win as long as you are still alive.

Explanation
  • Say the BD king, a CW, and a Pretender are still alive. The BD wouldn’t be able to win because Prince is a royal.
Reasoning
  • Discourages Pretenders from open claiming

Passive 2: Heir- Whenever a king dies, the amount election votes for you count for will increase by 1. You will start at one vote.

Explanation
  • Say the first king dies, and 2 people vote for you during an election. Now you have a total of 4 votes. Now say 2 kings die, and 2 people vote for you. This results in you having 6 votes.
Reasoning
  • Discourages Pretenders from claiming to the King even more since they need that extra vote

  • Encourages Pretenders to attack the king

  • This, in turn, encourages BD to protect their king.

Night ability 1: Blood Test- Limit your target’s class type down to 2 options. Determine if they have Royal Blood. Upon finding a royal you will gain one use of Kinslayer.

Explanation
  • Blood Test- Basically works the same as the current Blood Test If you successfully find a Royal Blood then you will gain one use of Kinslayer.
Reasoning
  • Helps find and eliminate royals.

  • Also allows Pretenders to fakeclaim Princess

Night ability 2: Kinslayer(Uses: 1) - Kill your target.

Explanation
  • Basically the same as the current Kinslayer, but can target non-royals
Reasoning
  • Royals can be a major threat to the throne, but they aren’t the only competition. Mystics, Observers, and any confirmable class can be a threat which the current Kinslayer can’t eliminate.

Day Ability 1: Fraud(Uses: 1)- During an election, you will steal all of the election votes a player has and take them for yourself. They will not be notified, and this only works at the end of the election.

Explanation
  • At the end of the election, this will remove all of the votes for the target player and give them to the Pretender instead.

  • Say a Noble and Pretender step up for king with one king dead. 2 players vote for the Noble and nobody votes for the Pretender. The pretender uses Fraud on the Noble. When the final votes are counted, the Noble will have 0 votes and the Pretender will have 4. So the Pretender will become king.

Reasoning
  • This is mainly for countering situations when everyone is following a confirmed player.

  • This also has an effect even when Pretender isn’t in the game. This makes people more careful about electing players in general.

Day Ability 2: Ballot Mixing(Uses: 1)- During an election, announce the presence of a Pretender to the court. If you gain any election vote other than yourself then you will become king.

Explanation
  • Upon using this, the court will receive the following message(Could be reworded): "A Pretender has decided to mix the Ballot! Upon receiving any vote besides their own they will become king!

  • If the Pretender receives any vote at all other than their own, then they will become king. This overrides the votes given to other players, even if the Pretender has less votes.

  • However, this will not announce who the Pretender is, even if the Pretender becomes King.

Reasoning
  • This is another nerf to confirmation, giving the Pretender a chance even if everyone else who has stepped up is confirmed.
  • Goal: Ascend to the throne, and survive

Exiled King

  • Crowned From: Pretender

Passive 1: Tenacity- Same as current

  • No explanation needed

Passive 2: Dethrone- if you are found guilty of treason then there may not be any more elections.

Explanation
  • If the king dies for any reason then this will prevent the court from having any more kings.
Reasoning
  • Further discourages Pretenders from open claiming.

  • Discourages the court from lynching a suspected Exiled King

Night Ability 1: Hide(Uses: 2)- Prevent anyone from targeting you

Explanation
  • Works like Stand Guard, except it can self-target and has no cooldown.
Reasoning
  • Gives the king some survivability

Day ability 1: Royal Finger- Same
Day Ability 2: Decide Fate- Same

Goal: Survive


#2

Er you could’ve just chucked the first rework in a spoiler and then the second rework in another, but okay


#3

That contains the discussion from the first one though


#4

Thats fine lol, reworking the pretender is what the discussion was about wasn’t it? I disagree with it needing a rework.

PS if you’re on computer you may find this class card generator helpful


#5

Can you list your reasons again? I’ll list mine

Ty, I’ll use it next time


#6

Here’s my reasoning:

  • Pretender isn’t meant to be NB. I’ve seen people vote Pretenders who have open claimed Pretender. That shouldn’t happen. Pretender is meant to be more NC than NB and should have the same effect on elections that fool and scorned do on trials.

  • I have also seen players open claim Pretender to the king. That shouldn’t happen, and some kings have even kept Pretender claims alive.

  • Pretender’s day abilities are focused on eliminating/countering competition. I dislike the idea of hardcounters in general, and Pretender should have a better time in elections.

  • Pretender’s day abilities should be focused on manipulating elections. Part of the reasoning for the low win rate is because Pretender has nothing to prevent factions from voting their own rather than Pretenders.

  • Pretender can just be a better princess at times. This was the same issue that people had with the old alchemist.


#7

@Twil1ight @Firekitten @Planterror is this any better?


#8

A Pretender rework isn’t necessary at the moment, but it’s one of the things that should happen eventually. And buffing Pretender wouldn’t be that much of a nerf on the BD win rate. My Pretender is more NC than NE/NB, so evils could be against the Pretender as well.


#9

NCs can side with whoever they wish, NBs statistically side BD, I’m not sure who pretender usually sides with, I’m certain its not BD though

Sure its bad play, I wouldnt classify it as throwing.

The fault lies with the BD upping them, not the pretender themselves.

They do, they skew king elections in scums favour, I know BD has a much stronger chance of winning in the late game with a BD king.

I.e the king

I disagree, bewildering a king may prevent one faction from gaining majority.

Say you are unseen with 2 members and you can convert that night, your MM and a duchess turned assassin, do you really think you can get majority on your duchess over a pretender open claim? You’ve got the classic BD pretender sympathisers who will vote pretender, you’ve got the “pretender is unconvertable so they can’t be scum, lets up them over a potential MM/converted princess.”

Er, they are a better princess in all respects. By old alchemist you mean when he had OP truth potion?


#10

True but it’s not uncommon for Pretenders to side BD even before they become king. I don’t have a problem with them deciding who to side with after becoming king, but they should be on their own(most of the time at least) before them.

I never said it was throwing, I just think that there should be something to discourage it.

True but Pretender has nothing to discourage it.

That was a bad example, look at this post. It has the same reasoning, and it’s what I based my ideas off of.

That’s why I want to discourage them from open claiming.

I mean when alch just had an unlimited heal + 2 kills.


#11

Alright, but another main issue that I have with Bewiler/silence and Ballot Mixing is that they only affect one class. I think abilities should be able to work on all(or at least most. I’m fine with immunities) classes


#12

Its a problem with any class with a simple survive win condition.

The open claiming one I mean


#13

As Pretender who just got poisoned by a Butler, I think there needs to be counterplay besides just appeasing a random player who may or not exist and is in all likelihood an unpredictable idiot. Give me a single-use ability to counter Butler poison. As Pretender King I have room for another ability.


#14

Aww Im inspiring people
Made my night


#15

True though alchemist and mercenary aren’t as much as an issue since they are meant to be NB. And Alchemist could use a more unique win condition.

My original thread had a buffed Dethrone to discourage that(Dethrone: There may not be any more kings after your death), but people complained about it being overpowered.

Do you have any ideas? 1 use of Deadly Guards could work. And is it fine other than that.

Lol yw. Do you like this?


#16

bruh this is op af

and why have kinslayer kill confirmed obs/mystic when you can just use fraud on them

seems a bit excessive imo

also this version of abllot mixing will just incentivize bd ot not vote and evils to vote for their own…

i like the kinslayer change(sort of), i don’t like the new day abilities

the one major downside to kinslayer is that your power comes from the amount of nobles that spawned(besides prince) which kinda sucks, and you can just span blood test on them afterwards


#17

oh, and adding onto this, it announces there’s a pretender and all princess claims will be susp as fuck


#18

This would actually have the opposite effect compared to what you are expecting.

The state which this leads to is: Unseen/Cult and NK are dead. BD has thus already won. Pretender can still win. Now all Pretender has to do is point out that this is the case and that thus BD has no reason not to just let her win cuz the game would just end immediately once she does anyway.

Also as she is the only non-NK neut that must survive the entire game that doesn’t have survival as the intended challenge (alchemist has surviving as the challenge, Inquis/merc/scorned/fool can win mid game and sellsword can win while dead) having permanent death immunity rather than just 1 time is justified.

Since if there is an election then by definition this is a better royal blood. Since you already needed elections to happen so long as you are not the King this does not effect open claiming pretender.

Also both day ability’s are OP AF for her purposes

Not to mention this ability is a givaway to your faction which shouldn’t exist

You are doing it wrong. You want to ENCOURAGE lynching an Exiled King (also I get a Pretender King AND scum can’t replace her if she sides with me? Where do I sign up?)


#19

Honestly. None of these changes make me not want to trust Pretenders any less than I already do (to be fair I don’t trust pretenders but that is besides the point)


#20

Dethrone sounds cool. Although Pretender having to survive to win with only 1 guard makes it harder to survive as Pretender King than other Neut Kings. Which seems terribly ironic, since you have to become King whereas the rest simply made the choice to. Assuming that I’m correct that Pret only gets 1 guard and neut kings get 2.

I also played a game where Pretender helped Cult win in exchange for the throne. Then, Cult executed him for lols because their victory was already assured. This is problematic. If Pretender has to do more than simply become King to win, he needs something to discourage yolo executions. Like take down the first person who accused him.

I was excited about Pretender at first. But after playing some games with him I’ve changed my mind. Becoming King and then surviving to end-game is too difficult. And this problem is compounded by the ridiculous allies, which you can’t even counter because protectors are always on King early game … but this problem applies to all neuts.

I would much rather a Pretender who wins upon becoming King. And then either dies or just loses all abilities, after causing some sort of harm to BD that would greatly discourage electing Pretender.

I want the class to be about becoming King, not surviving.