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New Neutral - The Pretender


#161

Yeah but in a few cases it’s fine. I am the liquor wouldn’t sound right on sorcerer. However bewilder sounds fine with pretender(and chains of corax should be renamed to intimidate as well)


#162

So you are telling me that the 3 use ability on the sneeky blood cultist should be renamed fit the unlimited use ability on the overt swordsman… Why!?


#163

It should be renamed to something other than chains of corax though. It’s a bit unoriginal, especially since it’s other ability is strings of mithras


#164

It’s a cool name that fits the theme and lore of the class. Intimidate does not


#165
  • Poss buff
  • EK buff (niche thou)
  • King overall nerf, as they are less consistent now
  • Additional neutral, so hey, less double Alchs

That’s very likely Prentender’s impact in the game as it is now. I like the class, but I feel like it is oddly hard. After RB nerf, her NA seems not too much effective(also you need 2 nights to kill an outed RB), neither the help she could get to be elected as King with her own RB. Not only become King will be hard for a lot of reasons (claiming, trustfulness, other best choices available [and RB nerf make it so a lot of people step now]), but surviving may be as well: evils know it is not EK, so she will be an easy target, and if BD thinks this may be Pretender (for a claim from previous King feedback with her abilities), they will likely vote her up; no one wants Neutrals deciding lategames, not to say one with double votes. Also, as Offensive, what can she fake claim in case of Princess flirt? She can’t confirm any Offensive/Killer BD.

This is constructve, tho, I know i42 puts effort to balance things, I am not trying to put you guys work down.
My suggestions would be change its killing NA to either “be able to kill RB” (no need to investigate first) or still ask for the investigation, but be unhealable/unguardable. Her investigative ability is fine imo, but maybe showing which Class it is in case of RB, hm? Seems fun.
As of her alignment, why not Special? More space to claim as Investigative than Offensive/Killer; and she has an Investigative and Killer NA with Offensive DA, so that also makes sense, indeed an special case.
I like her DAs. A little too confirmable, which is bad to her and may often lead to the opposite of helping her to achieve her goal (outed Pretender = yeah forget that win).
But I may be wrong. I like to overanalyze stuff, tho, so at least take this reply into consideration :frowning: not doing that to offend the staff, it is enterily made with the purpose of helping.


#166

I like the direction this idea takes. So often pretender doesn’t want to kill rb because once the game has reached 5 players with a king she loses. If there are 6 players left and day starts with a king, chances are she ain’t getting king!

Part of the reason this class is difficult is because they have to pretty much get the throne the instant that the starting king dies or they are very likely to lose.


#167

Also I propose that the Pretender committs suicide if night starts with 5 players including a king or 4 players excluding a king to reduce the swing of the class. Unless it is intended that she affect games regardless of being able to achieve the wincon?


#168

There’s like zero reason this shouldn’t happen


#169

I second this.


#170

Yes please!


#171

I minute this.


#172

I thinked a little more. Pretender can get out good if she just steps late in the game. She can also risk an open claim like Alch. What Alchs do to BD keep them alive? Heals! What Pretender does? She confirms RB! So I think she can just out, wait and step at the end. Sure, she gotta hope they kill King/Second King for that, but seems better than playing completely solo.

Also she can easily confirm herself with her DAs, so the drawback now helps them :slight_smile:

I AM CALLING IT META RIGHT NOW!


#173

when will this be implemented into the game?
tbh, it seems pretty hard to become king and survive with neither death immunity nor guards :frowning:


#174

If it isn’t then why is it in announcements.


#175

honestly to me the hardest part will be becoming king. With the old royal blood it wouldn’t have been that hard (kill off other RB’s to run as unopposed royal), but now you’ve gotta get some votes. BD is going to favor voting classes with some kind of psudo-confirmation, unseen/cult are obviously going to pile on their candidate.


#176

Unless you convince the scum to vote you instead :wink:


#177

true but then you run into the same problem, admitted this probably would be more scum sided to be outed (because 1 living cult/unseen is a greater risk to a guardless king than most BD classes), though it of course all depends on when in the game the king falls, still fairly hard to imagine unseen/cult chosing a neut over their own, unless there’s just no chance for conversion.


#178

I would like to point out that if a pretender King is openly betraying the scum that voted her up then she won’t last long. It’s much safer to side with those that put you up in the first place


#179

Time for me to take a crack at this while I eat lunch. It seems the usurper archetype is a big hit, and it makes sense to capitalize on it when the iron is hot, but how does The Pretender hold up?

Wall of Text

No Allegiance:
Death immune at night. Upon becoming King the death immunity is lost, and you start with 0 charges of Guards!

Royal Blood:
During the election for a new King, votes for you count twice.

No issues here with mechanics. With the changes to Royal Blood and the King voting process, I have to wonder do you collect stats as to how many elections are failed after a starting King dies? I have seen many elections completely wasted and with the new blind-vote system I worry that this is a hurdle that would make the Pretender really difficult to play.

I would propose to change it to “Noble Guise”, granting them three votes per vote instead of two, and allowing them to maintain the theme that they are a pretender to the throne and not a legitimate heir.

You will always vote for yourself, granting yourself 3 votes out of the 15 (worst case King death N1), which is a very sizable amount and if you do manage to bluff people to voting for you all you really need are 1 or 2 other people supporting. This would make the threat of provable Royal Bloods more direct and would require you to step up your killing game to erase the competition as a normal role would have hardly any chance to compete with your vote multiplier.

This also has the additional benefit of being set up as a puppet by the Unseen/Cult as you’re an easy vote (and they are an informed minority) and can easily be manipulated due to your lack of Guards. Perhaps three votes may be too much on paper but I don’t feel it is in practice (more on that below).

Silence: (2)
Prevent the King from using their day abilities.

Ballot Mixing: (2)
Reverse the King’s vote during trial. If they voted to execute, they will instead pardon and vice versa. Affects Decide Fate.

I really enjoy Ballot Mixing and as long as it remains secret I would love to see the chaos it causes. As for Silence, I’m not entirely sold on it. You don’t want to be revealing your presence openly and ideally want the King to be using abilities and playing like normal until it’s your time to strike. It does open up new bluffing opportunities for EK, but only if it’s a Cult King really as there are no other Silence abilities. Silencing King Finger might get them executed in a Possessor game though.

Ultimately I feel like the stars need to align for Silence to work well. Perhaps if it also muted the King for a duration (in addition to cutting abilities) it would be much more interesting of an ability instead of just fire and forget. It would also make it a lot less narrow while keeping the scope and flavour.

Family Matters: ( )
Discover if a player has Royal Blood.

Kinslayer: (2)
Kill a player with Royal Blood. You must first test them with Family Matters, before you can attack someone with Royal Blood.

I actually do like how Kinslayer won’t kill the target if you’re redirected by a Drunk, allowing you to bluff a little. Not much else to say here, I like the two abilities. I would maybe have Family Matters reworked to Lineage Investigation, allowing them to get some information on the target even if it doesn’t hit Royal Blood (more on this below).

So I seem to like the majority of the class, but the problem arises here. The Pretender has to jump through three hoops in order to even consider winning.

  1. They must have a King killed.
  2. They must be voted up.
  3. They must actually SURVIVE without any guards.

Killing the King isn’t much of an issue. Between reduced Guards, Butlers, Reapers and a slew of problems, Kings seem to die more often than not, however there is always a chance of a Pocket Alchemist, or a Good King, or a Scum faction that is too hesitant to kill them. While you can control the Day Game somewhat, you have to be really, really, persuasive to make the King look bad in some games.

Even after the King dies, you must be voted up, yet you have no good claims. You can lie and call yourself an Observer, Sheriff or whatnot but again the burden is on you to prove yourself. You can claim Pretender, but who would want to vote that up over a Drunk who can confirm redirects, a Noble who can confirm whispers, or a Princess. What about Mystics who have a Day Prove and can be easily set up as a true BD? While those are convertible targets (and you’re not), I have only seen a few games where a Neutral King was elected, and when they were they generally don’t help BD out. With the triple vote mentioned earlier, all you need to do is convince 2 people to vote you, making the lie more flexible.

The third hurdle is staying alive with no Guards. Not only do you need to get Elected to even have a CHANCE of winning, you must still survive with no Guards. Again the burden is heavily weighted toward the skill of the player and how spiteful NKs, Butlers, Scum are. As a Scum player, trusting a Pretender claim to act in your best interests is a gamble at best. This is the same problem with the election process and BD, you have to get people to trust you either through lying about your role (and you’ll eventually be caught in the highest level of play), or honestly claiming Pretender (in which case the court elects a neutered King and scum can hold all of the cards over you). The Scum have no way to know if you’re a PK or not, and if they struck you only to find you’re death immune, I doubt you’ll be King for long. I understand that Neutral Kings have a 70+ win rate, but that is WITH 3 Guards. Without, I can only imagine how much it plummets. There is no risk to attack the Neutral King Pretender, you don’t really waste a night, you just eliminate a possible variable.

Ultimately I think having three hurdles, all of which are gatekeeped by high difficulty isn’t good design. At the highest level of play I can see the Pretender’s win rate being extremely low, akin to NKs.

This can be solved by alleviating one of the three problems (but not entirely removing it).

  1. You can make the Pretender have triple votes. I outlined my reasoning for this near the top of the post. I feel this has the most interesting of the three proposed solutions and alleviates one of the sections (Elections) that you have the least control over.

  2. You can allow for Family Matters/Lineage Investigation to provide some information on a target. Something minor like Gossip or even a one-way follow. This would help you during the election process by giving you SOMETHING to claim, or at least provide you some information to create a likely alibi. I feel this misses the point of the class but it may help to get yourself elected.

  3. You can provide The Pretender with some Guards under a condition. This will help them survive once they get up there, but having to manage when to Guard might be a subgame in itself. This is probably the most hamfisted solution, but it does help you once you get up there.

My favourite is number 1, as it is the most deceptive and the most dynamic of the three, allowing for many more interesting interactions and diplomacy. A Prince may put you up if they suspected an EK, knowing full well they can trust you (for now), an Assassin might slide you a deal, or a Reaper might send you a spooky whisper and 3 of his votes.

I feel this role is very good for the game on it’s sheer existence, allowing for new bluffs and new headgames, but I really do feel actually PLAYING the class is going to be a test of skill that’s honestly too much to be worthwhile; there are too many hoops and too many If’s and until that changes it’s going to be a rough ride.


#180

I still would love a 2 king hide ability :thinking:

But I like the three votes.

also this is going to be impossible if ever added to fol