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[DevBlog] Behind the Streamline Patch (Non-Balance)


#21

Ici’s suggestion is also one that should be considered


#22

The full card would look something like this:

The Hunter :shield:

Blue Dragon Killer

Retribution (Passive) - If you are executed, you will shoot your current marked player. If you have not marked a player yet you will shoot the first person to accuse you.

Wolf Companion (Day) - Same as current. - 2 uses

Hunter’s Mark (Night) - Change which player you have marked. This mark will linger until either you or they die, but has no effect directly - Infinite uses.

Bear Companon (Night) - Same as current.- 3 uses
You win when all threats to the Blue Dragon have been eliminated.


#23

I’ll make a new thread for the suggestion.


#24

Retribution is too strong to be on a non-unique.


#25

The game can’t start with 3 units that beat evil king in final 2


#26

the shield means unique


#27

also this punishes scum for pushing a mislynch with no direct counterplay

imo we should just accept retribution is gone and shouldn’t come back ever


#28

it’s slightly better than old retribution in that it’s not basically random whether it hits or not, so there’s that

Also, a ton of people want retribution back for some reason because they found it fun, and honestly hunter arrow memes were always fun. I’m just trying to think how to make it balanced and simple.


#29

I mainly want visit prevention back if you ask me.

it’s a massive nerf to all non offensive scum classes

and a massive buff to BD


#30

+1


#31

Personally I’m fine with reusing icons. I just don’t like the specific icons used.

The bleeds just kinda look like a plain red background and I think the old distract icon would be better than the bewilder icon.

Also I personally think a good idea would be to select a keyword in the guide book and have it take you to the class list with all of the classes without that keyword in the card grayed out

Oh yeah you should probably mention somewhere that bleed immunity does not cure an existing bleed


#32

That’s true, but the current alchemist is just a neutral physician. You should try to avoid making classes too similar to already existing classes(unless they have opposing win conditions).

I agree that consistency is a good thing, but you should only be merging abilities for consistency if they have the same purpose.

What RNG was there?

Also, here are my thoughts on the patches now that some time has passed:

prevention changes

  • I’m neutral on this one. There were several differences between prevention and occupation(If a two-target ability targeted a prevented player then only one target would be prevented while prevention affected both. Prevention affects targeters and not just visitors. Prevention also bypassed immunity), but I can see how this can be confusing, and I understand why they did it. I would personally prefer a revert, but if it stays then can you at least add back the ability for old prevention abilities to bypass occupation immunity? All classes need counterplay(including prince). Oh and can you also still have the same message for jailing and occupation(It should be “You were prevented from BLANKing X”)?

No more immunity-bypassing abilities

  • Bad change. All classes need counterplay. I do like the current happy hour more since it fits with Debauchery better, but I love the concept of the old Happy Hour. Maybe it could be on a new Offensive? And it could only remove immunities/disable passives? We need a fakeclaimable Offensive anyways

Distract changes

  • I like that they are making distract more common to reduce confirmation, but I disagree with merging distract, bewilder, and Icy Touch. Distract and Bewilder had a similar purpose, and I agree that Bewilder was weak, but 25 seconds vs the entire day is a huge difference. As long as it’s a temporary effect people will be able to say that they were silenced(Yes, I know that it’s not fun to be silenced. I have another solution for that). And Icy Touch and Distract have completely different purposes. Distract is usually used for executing players/making players suspicious. Icy Touch is used to prevent players from spreading info, and to give reaper the upper hand in voting lategame. Sure, reaper is a rare class, but that doesn’t mean that you should ignore it. NKs are just as important as every other class. Here’s how I would fix it, while solving the issue of it not being fun: Split distract into 3 abilities(Butler, Servant, Invoker, and Pretender would have Bewilder. Scorned and assassin would have Distract. Reaper would have Icy Touch) :

Bewilder(1 use): Disable your target’s day abilities for the rest of the day. They will not be notified until they attempt to use a day ability. Still consumes the use/cost of the ability, if any.

  • Reasoning: Gives Prince and day confirmation counterplay while reducing confirmation.

Distract(1 use): Blackmail(prevent them from speaking to anyone but yourself. You will appear as the Blackmailer) and Silence(prevents them from voting and accusing) your target for the rest of the day.

  • Reasoning: As long as Distract is temporary people will be able to say that they were distracted. To prevent it from being unfun I allowed the blackmailed player to talk to their blackmailer.

Icy Touch(2 souls): Consume 2 souls to Blackmail, Distract, and Bewilder your target for the rest of the day.

  • Reasoning: Allows reaper to stand a chance lategame while still making Icy Touch fun.

Bleed/poison merge

  • Great change. Though why are you willing to merge these yet keep Sheriff and Paladin separate? They have the exact same problem.

Mind Warp Change

  • Bad change. No feedback should be infallible, and nerfing for non-balance reasons should only be a last resort, if ever. There were plenty of other solutions. If consistency was the issue, then you could just make all Frames an AoE mind warp. This would also increase the commonness of it so people are more ready for it.

Can’t Touch This nerf

  • Bad change. Can’t touch this was there since there are enough unconvertables already. The hidden part was since there are no investigative classes that had occupation immunity, and it was honestly no more confusing than framings.

In the Shadows removal

  • I can understand why they did this because of Apprentice, but the unseen is much more easily found since both members can be found by Sheriffs. IMO this should be given to the starting assassin instead, and it should be permanent.

Apprentice

  • I like this better than the timed limit, but only working on the starting assassin is too weak. It should work on anyone, or replace it with this:

Apprentice: If you die and the oldest living unseen has been apart of the unseen for at least 3 days then they will become the mastermind

  • Reasoning: Still allows the sheriff to kill the MM early, but now they will do better lategame since any player can become the MM. Which is good since lategame is when scum should be strongest.

Frame can now affect follow

  • Great change. Now frame can work on any investigative ability.

No longer being able to edit logs on trial.

  • Bad change. I don’t see the point of this at all. This is just an unnecessary nerf for evils

PS. I like that you’re making an effort to communicate with the community. This is easily the best dev team that I have ever seen.

Hunter is now not unique and retribution is gone

  • Bad change. I loved retribution, and it allowed Hunters to still act aggressively even when they are out of bears. I can see how it might be a bit RNG-based, but Icibalus’s solution would be perfect.

Hunter and poacher are no longer immune to occupation and redirection

  • Bad change. I can see why you want to make Butlers and Drunk more useful as there were a ton of immune classes, but it should be reserved for classes that can occupy, and both Hunter and Poacher have occupation abilities

Wolf is now a day ability

  • Bad change. 2 days vs one day is huge. People are also more frequently using wolf as confirmation, which shouldn’t be done(It’s a waste of a powerful ability, and there are too many negative variables). If evils not being able to fake this was an issue, then just rework Drug so it can fake any message.

How?

I dislike a lot about ToS, but that’s one of the few things that I actually like. What’s so bad about it? It’s better than our system, where there are a ton of different defenses.

That would be great. Not everyone knows about the forum(Maybe you could have an in-game tip about the forum and discord?)

Occupation and redirection. There’s also conversion if you can’t find another way around.

Isn’t it already in the class card?


#33

I think it’s in innoculate but it should be in the keyword description cuz it’s true with other classes too


#34

Also stop talking like immunity bypass is the only way to counterplay an occupier.

There is a reason why the first thing I suggested when this patch came out is more temporary occupy immunity sources


#35

How else can you bypass them then?


#36

Temporary occ immunity


#37

Especially since they removed occ immunity on the classes that occ immunity can’t ignore (besides Prince)


#38

(also tbh just make jail an AOE occupy like the other similar effects)


#39

Problem is there is inconsistently with the icons hunters wolf is the same thing as bleed but doesn’t share the same icon

Cult like Invokers occupation or “puppet strings” which is debauchery.

Or for example alchemists heal ect.

All occupy immune classes have different icons but then with the newer icons they are same as others

I feel like you shouldn’t have a mix of both either every class gets different icons or they share the same ones for the same Abilites.


#40

Also the majority of people aren’t interested in suggesting ideas all the time, I just always like to voice my opinion instead of screaming “bad patch lol” I feel mixed about the patch and I’m sure you guys will work something out that will attract new players but also let Veterans who have spent many hours feel at home. (lol I’m over 2000 at this point I’m one of your biggest fans) I feel like I want to help the community out and I’ll always do my part in making suggestions and trying to help as much as I can so I can see this game have success.

just want a game that has its old complexity and charm it’s hard because my favourite class the old Mercenary was removed and reworked into a fun class it’s just not the same and I get upset with things getting completely removed aswell as starting Neutral King while contriversal I’d argue that it gave king more complexity of course I’d limit other Neutrals down to 2 because at that point it would become throne of whoever has the most neuts sided.

I feel like it’s more rng click da button to win instead of social dudection sometimes, once change I really want to see is noble twin removal it confirms noble easily imagine Mastermind being able to claim noble making the noble class have to put effort into proving. Prince of course is needed for balance but we can’t have super confirmable classes without counters aka Sellsword always is going to make butlers suspicious but drunks will get a free pass.

There are a lot of ways TOL could go I just don’t like seeing classes always completely reworked to the point they don’t even feel the same.