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Agent & Double Agent


#61

I addressed that objection of yours in my reply to your other post though:


#62

and I addressed the counter to the addressing of that


#63

Oh shoot once you add the “myers” I totally remember that name lmao


#64

Remember when we thought that the Spy’s visit bug would be a temporary stand-in ability?

Those were the days :laughing:


#65

Ah okay, well I even have a solution to that: Unseen decides what class the Agent flips as.

Or simply make him flip as a Fool if he dies at night.


#66

What about the whisper reading for spy? What did you think about that and why is ToL different (or not)?


#67

which solves what exactly? Obviously the logs are going to say it’s an agent claim. Agents are probably going to preffer to die via execution which negates fool flipping. In the end they are going to know when they see that log that either, it’s an agent with all the unseens information… or a trick in which an assasain or similar fake put agent in his will

Really though this is besides the point. Hold on here… yeah we’re getting worse here…

look in order to save your class, you have to render it so useless that everyone possible would hate to be… in order for reading scumchat to be balanced, you have to render it in a way that you eliminate any loophole in which people would ever believe it…

end of the day? You have to make him completely unviable to not be horrible.


#68

Okay I was replying to your post while in a game so I’ll give it another shot now (this is in response to your earlier post).

The instant conversion makes it harder to get the information out there yes…

Note the information is not even infallible, or necessarily useful.

Either way… if you get yourself killed etc… as agent the BD gets the information (even if they have to be a bit cautious on it due to not truely knowing whether you were converted). That’s still litterally the only option.

If you die, flip as Double Agent or Assassin, determined automatically according to the number of Unseen alive. This solves the problem perfectly because it gives your logs 0 credibility as soon as Assassins start writing fake Agent logs.

In addition, you do see that regardless of how it’s displayed… if an agent claims agent, you have to execute him as BD.

Yes, Agents will never claim Agent. That’s the idea.

Fake claiming as BD is probably a pretty bad idea (better to get executed than to take a knight or the jailors executions with you).

We could let Prince keep exes for executing an Agent, and Knights not suicide.

You don’t get past the point of "why on earth would a competent unseen/cult ever make any plans in scumchat. Things like “claim occupied” or if you claim X I’ll claim Y etc… go out the window. Even if the agent can only out it in “debatable logs” or to jailors/mystics.

Seakers in scumchat are anonymous. They’re just called “Speaker.” Agent is not necssarily supposed to claim Agent to anyone, not even Prince or Mystic.


#69

Why wouldn’t you claim Agent to Prince/Mystic?


#70

Because Agent is a cheap scum claim to Prince, and Mystic can out you, especially if they get converted.


#71

Also what about people like me who aren’t scared of conversions


#72

So is most claims. You don’t fake claim to Prince just because your class isn’t provable


#73

Oh yeah. You also gave him a day vig


#74

It’s not that different insofar as I prefer no whispers either way

Regardless, not the point

@Shrimpy ok look if this class was implemented I’d straight quit, and that’s a bad place to be


#75

which solves what exactly? Obviously the logs are going to say it’s an agent claim. Agents are probably going to preffer to die via execution which negates fool flipping. In the end they are going to know when they see that log that either, it’s an agent with all the unseens information… or a trick in which an assasain or similar fake put agent in his will

Yes, the Assassin or Double Agent flip works better.

look in order to save your class, you have to render it so useless that everyone possible would hate to be… in order for reading scumchat to be balanced, you have to render it in a way that you eliminate any loophole in which people would ever believe it…

Agent has to utilize his knowledge without exposing the source of his knowledge. It’s challenging but not impossible at all. Unseen do it all the time to out the NK, and you don’t even necessarily have to lie in order to do it.


#76

anything else is just as likely to be killed by prince…

also if you don’t cost prince’s executions… then you accomplish agents actual purpose… DIE to give some of his information out there… doesn’t matter if it’s trustworthy or not… it’s at least checkable, sheriff can see if X was converted on the day they said “convert X” etc…

Unless of course the unseen wasn’t idiotic… and adapted the way we all keep saying they are going to, by functionally considering their chat not really existing if it isn’t secure.

You have 2 possibilities for a scum chat reader

Either… you finally succeed, you make enough caveats that reading scum chat doesn’t put unseen/cult at a disadvantage if they use their chat… in which case you’ve nerfed the class down into something nobody would ever want to play.

B. The class has potential to be strong in certain cases… in which case… the unseen/cult should never use their chat in games where it is possible it is being tapped.

There isn’t an inbetween there.

I get what you are going for, you are trying for what effectively is a BD scorned. IE someone who actually knows the evils, but has to trick people into thinking he’s a sheriff or something to try and actually get people to act on them. But in the end, the sane counter is simply don’t use the chat… unless you nerf it to the point where there’s no chance he can succesfully act on that information… but if you succeed there… what are you left with?


#77

It’s debatable whether flipping as Unseen when executed by Prince would be effective in destroying the credibility of your logs.

But I insist that spying on scum chat will not mute it if they are notified it’s being watched. The insta-convert thing forces you to be extremely careful with how you utilize your knowledge. I do not understand why you say there is no inbetween.

Say an Agent spies Unseen saying they are converting 16. Whoever throws suspicion on 16 is now a possible Agent. And you still don’t even know if 16 was converted.

Maybe there is the misconception that less communication while an Agent is spying is objectively, universally always optimal play. But that is not true, since you want Agent to accidentally out himself.


#78

Of course you do… but telling the truth in scum chat isn’t the way to do that… If you say you are converting 13, and then someone claiming sheriff says he scouted 13 and saw the conversion… it could be an agent, or it could be a sheriff (they do still have scout right, man I’ve been away a while).

OOOOR…

You could convert 13… but say you are converting 2… now asside from a scorned or something, the only way someone just turned on 2… is if he was in fact the agent.

The main thing is… if you want to catch the agent… you shouldn’t use your chat to say anything truthful ever. Just like in town of salem mafia chat degraded into nothing but spy baits.

“Oh but if they aren’t expecting it… maybe you’ll trick them by sliding actual plans through while being watched” you say… no because your teammate will think you are BSing the agent, so he’ll be ignoring it also.


#79

Welp


#80

Honestly if we have to keep adding exceptions to exceptions just to try and squeeze in some mechanic (especially when it itself causes a myriad of issues) it’s just not worth it tbh