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Agent & Double Agent


#41

But you are in University now :eyes:

And this is recorded at 2017.


#42

It is unlisted you dummy.


#43

Early 2017 to late 2018 is around two years :roll_eyes:


#44

I know that I’m saying that his YouTube channel is dead


#45

Yep it was never alive to begin with


#46

Thanks for replying to my thread (I asked you to in PM) but it would be cool to address why you think the undercover passive does not sufficiently balance the scumchat-reading

It’s really remarkable that not a single respnose in this thread of 45 replies has addressed the fact that undercover is designed to counterbalance scumchat reading

In theory, the undercover passive actually provides incentive for scum to out themselves to spy via scumchat

You could say all the complaints about the spy class are strawmans


#47

mainly the concept in general is bad… The agent will keep what he has in his logs… whisper it to a mystic or tell it in jail. It isn’t that it will go wrong every time… it’s that the possibility of it going wrong is enough to keep scum afraid to use their chat. Auto convert actually creates some oddities as well, if the agent gathers enough info on the unseen, it’s in his interest to allow himself to get executed with the unseen/cult dooming information in his logs (I’d assume being dead is the only way besides mystic/jail to eliminate the risk of getting converted right after screwing over the unseen/cult.

In short… the agent would be trying to gather as much info before he dies… if put on the stand he’d need to do something borderline gamethrowing (If he helps BD and says what he knows… he knows right then and there he’s going to be pulled onto the scum team… if he doesn’t he’s going to die), also if he claims it on the stand BD should execute him even if they believe him… because he WILL become converted now that they know his identity.


#48

I think you are ignoring us tbh.

Converting will never work here as a counterbalance. Nothing will work here, no matter what you try tbh.

Converts just screw the class, as you have no way to actually give infomation to be helpful. And unless there’s a mystic or a prince you won’t be able to help (unless you fake claim however you are still at risk).

Even still the fact that it makes scumchat unusable to come up with plans WHICH IS WHAT IT’S DESIGNED FOR

you can argue that they can feed false infomation however this game isn’t suppose to be a spy vs mafia. It’s suppose for be mafia planning trying to take over the town (yes I used those words cause I’m lazy to translate it to TOL)


#49

Personally never played tos back then but I can assure you when tos did have old spy people hated it


#50

That it is a legitimate and very interesting argument. Basically what you’re saying is optimal play for Agent would be to get himself killed without claiming Agent. So he’d essentially be a Blue Dragon Fool.

Fortunately for Agent I know of a way to prevent that: Agent always appears to be Double Agent when he dies. Or Assassin, or some sort of evil (whatever make the most sense).

@Firekitten How am I ignoring anyone?


#51

All your points rely on the counterbalance of his passive which isn’t our argument (well kinda of but not really)

Our argument is you are making scumchat the opposite of what it should be, it should be a place to plan however you basically made it into a no talking zone. Even still your argument says it’s benifical to out yourself to bait the agent, let’s be honest. 1/10 people will ever do that 9/10 people will now never speak in scum chat.

The only way I can actually see to fix this class is to move everything around.

Delete the seeing scumchat passive.

Add a new day ability-see scum chat tonight, as well alerting them that you are watching it. Using this activates your passive.

Change the passive to have the following conditions-Is only activated upon using your day ability (once activated always activated) that way you don’t get yolo sniped

Night Ability-Silence-Prevent someone from speaking in any chats tonight (maybe change it to tomorrow) (you should also use this right away)

Something’s like that so scumxhay isn’t useless all the time

I think that’s the main problem with the class


#52

Yes, I like these changes you propose very much. But I have always been open to such changes that don’t destroy the main point of the class which is to spy on scum chat. That’s why I acknowledged earlier that alerting the Unseen their chat is being watched may be a good idea, and even edited the OP to reflect that.


#53

Town of salem actually did that… actually I think that was the test, because as we previously mentioned what was especially incidious of it was that everyone knew mafia chat, was never to be used to communicate strategy or plan due to spies.

The middle ground that hit shortly after orange’s video started swaying more people, was to give the mafia an alert saying “a spy is listening” each night if a spy is in the game.

End result… 1/3rd of games (IE games without spies), mafia started learning to strategize and thier winrate went up in those games. The other 2/3rds of the game… everyone learned the only thing to say in mafia chat, is variations of F* you spy!.


#54

Oh shit that was implemented

I remembered the push for it (which I strongly opposed) but I literally repressed the memories of it being implemented because it went so poorly


#55

this is just a suggestion to make the class more bearable I don’t think scumchat reading should exist


#56

lol I remember arguing with you specifically on that :stuck_out_tongue:

of which I have to point at you and say I was right at the time (My arguement was that you were right that it wasn’t a fix for the problem, but that it should be implimented because it was the only way to prove and demonstrate the negative effects of mafia chat reading to get the darn thing removed), IE it became demonstrable by the creation of games in which the mafia knew their chat was secure and could actually strategize.


#57

I always thought we should skip the obvious bullshit and just fix the problem

Devs don’t seem to like that approach :laughing:

Also wait were you also Vandalay on ToS or were you something else


#58

http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&un=Myersvandalay


#59

Town of Salem did not implement insta-converting Spy during the day, so that’s not comparable. At all.


#60

The instant conversion makes it harder to get the information out there yes…

Either way… if you get yourself killed etc… as agent the BD gets the information (even if they have to be a bit cautious on it due to not truely knowing whether you were converted). That’s still litterally the only option.

In addition, you do see that regardless of how it’s displayed… if an agent claims agent, you have to execute him as BD. Fake claiming as BD is probably a pretty bad idea (better to get executed than to take a knight or the jailors executions with you).

You don’t get past the point of "why on earth would a competent unseen/cult ever make any plans in scumchat. Things like “claim occupied” or if you claim X I’ll claim Y etc… go out the window. Even if the agent can only out it in “debatable logs” or to jailors/mystics.